Government forms
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Government forms
Which government forms should be in the game? Let's see if we can compile a list. I'll go first:
==Imperial Governments==
- Celestial Empire (china)
- "King of Kings" Empire (name? persia)
- Theocratic Empire (egypt)
- Federated Empire (Carthage)
- Some other type of empire (Assyria/Babylonia, or do we think the Persian style is suitable for that?)
=="Normal" Governments==
- Democracy (athens et al)
- Tyranny (many greek states)
- Aristocratic Monarchy (many many states)
- Diarchy (sparta!)
==Tribal Governments==
- Tribal Despotism
- Tribal Democracy
What type of govt should the Iranian peoples have at game start?
Thoughts?
==Imperial Governments==
- Celestial Empire (china)
- "King of Kings" Empire (name? persia)
- Theocratic Empire (egypt)
- Federated Empire (Carthage)
- Some other type of empire (Assyria/Babylonia, or do we think the Persian style is suitable for that?)
=="Normal" Governments==
- Democracy (athens et al)
- Tyranny (many greek states)
- Aristocratic Monarchy (many many states)
- Diarchy (sparta!)
==Tribal Governments==
- Tribal Despotism
- Tribal Democracy
What type of govt should the Iranian peoples have at game start?
Thoughts?
Re: Government forms
Perhaps you forgot Republic for Rome?
Otherwise the others sounded good
Otherwise the others sounded good
Derahan- Posts : 26
Join date : 2012-01-15
Re: Government forms
maybe Rome could also be a federated republic?
I'm thinking that perhaps there should be a republic govt form that can nonetheless control large land areas.
I'm thinking that perhaps there should be a republic govt form that can nonetheless control large land areas.
Re: Government forms
The states of greece should have a government called "city state"
If you want more complicated you can have aristocratic monarchy and plutocracy for them(expect form athens which was democracy)Tyrranny and Diarchy should also be in
If you want more complicated you can have aristocratic monarchy and plutocracy for them(expect form athens which was democracy)Tyrranny and Diarchy should also be in
videonfan- Posts : 32
Join date : 2012-01-16
Re: Government forms
videonfan wrote:The states of greece should have a government called "city state"
If you want more complicated you can have aristocratic monarchy and plutocracy for them(expect form athens which was democracy)Tyrranny and Diarchy should also be in
I don't like calling a govt form "city state" because it doesn't refer to their actual form of government, but instead references their size and population distribution.
I now have for Greece
- Democracy
- Tyranny
- Oligarchy
- Plutocracy
- Diarchy
- Monarchy
Re: Government forms
Taylor wrote:videonfan wrote:The states of greece should have a government called "city state"
If you want more complicated you can have aristocratic monarchy and plutocracy for them(expect form athens which was democracy)Tyrranny and Diarchy should also be in
I don't like calling a govt form "city state" because it doesn't refer to their actual form of government, but instead references their size and population distribution.
I now have for Greece
- Democracy
- Tyranny
- Oligarchy
- Plutocracy
- Diarchy
- Monarchy
Oligarchy = Plutocracy
Monarchy is Aristrocatic government
videonfan- Posts : 32
Join date : 2012-01-16
Re: Government forms
videonfan wrote:Oligarchy = Plutocracy
Actually a plutocracy that is also an oligarchy is called a plutarchy.
Re: Government forms
Would do the jobTaylor wrote:videonfan wrote:Also theocracy for the jews
"Theocratic Monarchy"?
videonfan- Posts : 32
Join date : 2012-01-16
Re: Government forms
Well i believe the Republic (what ever form) should be able to control larger swats of territory than an Empire, or the same ammount
Derahan- Posts : 26
Join date : 2012-01-15
Re: Government forms
Derahan wrote:Well i believe the Republic (what ever form) should be able to control larger swats of territory than an Empire, or the same ammount
But how do we then model the Greek city state?
I was thinking, we could make it such that a certain centralization level is required to control more provinces?
Re: Government forms
Ok, so I made this scheme:
Explanation:
The max. # of provs column gives three numbers for each govt form. This is because there are three levels of overexpansion (these are cumulative): Mild, Medium and Severe. Each level of overexpansion gives: +4 RR, +20% tech cost, -20% tax/trade/prod. income, -20% manpower. E.g., when you have severe overexpansion, you're suffering +12 RR, +60% tech cost, and so on.
Note that some empire forms only give malusses. This is because the fact that they have high province limits is bonus enough in itself.
In the scheme, some arrows say "by event" or "by decision". These events and decisions of course will only fire if certain conditions are met; which I haven't thought out yet. AM can form CE or AE - the decisions will be mutually exclusive. I.e., if the decision to form CE is available to you, the decision to form AE will not be. The condition will be whether or not you have embraced the "mandate of heaven" idea, which will be very hard to do for non-Chinese.
When an arrow has no note, this means you can change govt manually (of course, with some stab cost).
Any thoughts? (This is what I came up with today while sitting in a train, so I'm sure there will be oversights )
Explanation:
Abbreviation | Name | Bonusses/Malusses | Max. # provs | Slider limits on: |
CE | Celestial Empire | +? yearly prestige, +? legitimacy | 10/20/30 | plutocracy |
AE | Aristocratic Empire | +?% tech cost | 20/40/60 | innovativeness, plutocracy |
TE | Theocratic Empire | -? tolerance, +?% tech cost | 10/20/30 | innovativeness, centralisation, plutocracy |
FR | Federated Republic | +?% trade&prod income | 10/20/30 | centralisation, aristocracy |
DD | Direct Democracy | -?% tech cost, +?% stab cost, +?%trade income, +? cultural trad. | 1/2/3 | centralisation, aristocracy, narrowmindedness |
AM | Aristocratic Monarchy | +?%prod inceome | 3/6/9 | plutocracy, centralisation |
Ty | Tyranny | -? morale, +? manpower, +?%stab cost, -? legitimacy | 1/2/3 | decentralisation |
Di | Diarchy | -? manpower, -?% tax income, +? morale, +? discipline | 2/4/6 | centralisation, plutocracy |
P | Plutocracy | +?% tax income | 1/2/3 | centralisation, aristocracy |
TH | Theocracy | -? tolerance | 2/4/6 | centralisation, innovativeness, plutocracy |
TD | Tribal Despotism | +?% tech cost, +?% stab cost | 30/60/90 | centralisation, plutocracy |
The max. # of provs column gives three numbers for each govt form. This is because there are three levels of overexpansion (these are cumulative): Mild, Medium and Severe. Each level of overexpansion gives: +4 RR, +20% tech cost, -20% tax/trade/prod. income, -20% manpower. E.g., when you have severe overexpansion, you're suffering +12 RR, +60% tech cost, and so on.
Note that some empire forms only give malusses. This is because the fact that they have high province limits is bonus enough in itself.
In the scheme, some arrows say "by event" or "by decision". These events and decisions of course will only fire if certain conditions are met; which I haven't thought out yet. AM can form CE or AE - the decisions will be mutually exclusive. I.e., if the decision to form CE is available to you, the decision to form AE will not be. The condition will be whether or not you have embraced the "mandate of heaven" idea, which will be very hard to do for non-Chinese.
When an arrow has no note, this means you can change govt manually (of course, with some stab cost).
Any thoughts? (This is what I came up with today while sitting in a train, so I'm sure there will be oversights )
Re: Government forms
The max number of provinces should increase drastically as you can't really expand and become big without too serious consecuenses as there are many provinces in the game (Controlling italy, sicily, sardinia and corsica gives you over 20 cities
Derahan- Posts : 26
Join date : 2012-01-15
Re: Government forms
Derahan wrote:The max number of provinces should increase drastically as you can't really expand and become big without too serious consecuenses as there are many provinces in the game (Controlling italy, sicily, sardinia and corsica gives you over 20 cities
that's true. so the empire forms should get higher limits?
Re: Government forms
Hm, no, that's not enough either .
How about CE 100/200/300, AE 100/200/300, TE 50/100/150, FR 50/100/150.
Does that make sense?
How about CE 100/200/300, AE 100/200/300, TE 50/100/150, FR 50/100/150.
Does that make sense?
Re: Government forms
Nice scheme!
That seems reasonable, but the rulers ADM should also have a big effect on overexpansion I think.
The tech penalty for overexpansion seems a bit harsh though. Maybe +10% for the first stage, then 15% and 20%?
Btw. the Persian empire at its largest had about 130 provinces on this map, the empire of Alexander about 140.
Hm, no, that's not enough either Smile.
How about CE 100/200/300, AE 100/200/300, TE 50/100/150, FR 50/100/150.
Does that make sense?
That seems reasonable, but the rulers ADM should also have a big effect on overexpansion I think.
The tech penalty for overexpansion seems a bit harsh though. Maybe +10% for the first stage, then 15% and 20%?
Btw. the Persian empire at its largest had about 130 provinces on this map, the empire of Alexander about 140.
Wolololo- Posts : 58
Join date : 2012-01-16
Re: Government forms
Wolololo wrote:That seems reasonable, but the rulers ADM should also have a big effect on overexpansion I think.
The tech penalty for overexpansion seems a bit harsh though. Maybe +10% for the first stage, then 15% and 20%?
Btw. the Persian empire at its largest had about 130 provinces on this map, the empire of Alexander about 140.
About the Persian Empire: thanks for counting that! With the planned extra provinces in Egypt, Persia is going to be at around 150 then.
Yeah, you're right, ADM should have an effect. What shall we make it? How about (for AE):
stage|ADM | <=5 | 6 or 7 | >=8 |
mild | 65 | 85 | unlimited |
medium | 130 | 170 | unlimited |
severe | 195 | 255 | unlimited |
That would put Persia and Alexander on the borderline of mild to medium overexpansion for not-so-good rulers. Sounds reasonable?
Ok, yeah the tech penalty is a bit over the top I agree. To make stuff simple I'd like each stage to be equally severe though, so I'd say then +7%/+14%/+21% ?
Re: Government forms
That seems good.
Also, the province limits for most of the governments should be increased by quite a bit. Especially for aristocratic monarchy. And there should be some way for Federated Republic to change to empire, probably by event.
Also, the province limits for most of the governments should be increased by quite a bit. Especially for aristocratic monarchy. And there should be some way for Federated Republic to change to empire, probably by event.
Wolololo- Posts : 58
Join date : 2012-01-16
Re: Government forms
Wolololo wrote:Also, the province limits for most of the governments should be increased by quite a bit. Especially for aristocratic monarchy. And there should be some way for Federated Republic to change to empire, probably by event.
Yes and yes . I underestimated the number of provinces quite a bit because I didn't have access to the game when I came up with that scheme.
I guess the reason for someone wanting to switch to an empire form from FR should be because of higher province limits I take it?
Re: Government forms
Yup. For me, as a player, the most important thing is how big my empire is.
Wolololo- Posts : 58
Join date : 2012-01-16
Re: Government forms
Wolololo wrote:Yup. For me, as a player, the most important thing is how big my empire is.
Derahan- Posts : 26
Join date : 2012-01-15
Re: Government forms
What do we do with trade leagues? Do we simply give one or several of the listed govt forms a trade league? E.g. Direct Democracy and Plutocracy? Or do we make an entirely new govt form for it? Or are trade leagues ahistorical and shouldn't be in the mod at all? Questions, questions...
Re: Government forms
Athens pretty much controlled a trade league, carthage so also i pressume
Derahan- Posts : 26
Join date : 2012-01-15
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